Qass 
Book. 




K41 



'•- JU 



FOREST SERVICE. 



The Committee on Expenditures 

IN the Department or Agriculture, 

Friday, June 10, 1910. 
The committee this day met, Hon. WilHam H. Graham (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present: Representatives Graham (chairman), Flood, Booher, and 
Moss. 

STATEMENTS OF MR. HENRY S. GRAVES, FORESTER IN CHIEF; 
MR. ALBERT F. POTTER, ASSOCIATE FORESTER; AND MR. A. 
ZAPPONE, CHIEF DIVISION OF ACCOUNTS AND DISBURSE- 
MENTS. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moss has some questions that he particularly 
desires to propound. 

Mr. Moss. What is your station ? 

Mr. Potter. Associate Forester, Washington. 

Mr. Moss. What are your official duties? 

Mr. Potter. Assistant to the Forester, and in his absence from the 
office I am in charge of the Forest Service. 

Mr. Moss. I am holding in my hand a Congressional Record of the 
date of March 11, 1910, and I am going to refer to some remarks 
made by Mr. Tawney, who is chairman of the Appropriations Com- 
littee, on that date and printed on page 3149 of the temporary Record. 
TWv will, of course, appear under date of March 11, 1910, in the per- 
maiijent Record, but may not appear on that particular page. I will 
place this in the record. Mr. Tawney, speaking, said: 

I fink, to my amazement, that in one bureau, namely, the Forestry Bureau, during 
the fisAal year 1908 there were a great many employees in the Bureau of Forestry 
traveling — what for? To deliver addresses to women's clubs; addresses at county 
seats OR educational questions, questions entirely foreign to forestry; addresses deliv- 
ered at meetings arranged by Members of Congress in their own States, presumably in 
their own districts; and if I may have five minutes more I desire to read some of these 
items as tending to show the want of scrutiny with which the Committee on Agriculture 
has been investigating not only these various expenditures in the Agricultural Depart- 
ment, but also the indifference of the committee as to the purposes for which the 
expenditures were made. 

Would you regard that as being a criticism against your department? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; I would. 

Mr. Moss. I thought so, and I felt, in justice to the department 
and more especially in justice to the members of this committee, that 
this matter should be taken up, and I will ask you some c[uestions 
based upon Mr. Tawney's remarks, placing a copy of the remarks in 
the record later on. I would like to ask you to what extent have 
addresses been delivered at meetings arranged by Members of Con- 

48961—10 1 



-^ /0/-N 



FOREST SERVICE. 






press in their States and districts, those addresses beinfr made by 
einph)yees of the Forestry Bureau '. 

Mr. PoTTKH. I luive no kno\vled<re of any such meetinfjs. 

Mr. Moss. Do vou know whether or not that statement is true or 
falser * 

Mr. Potter. There has been no speakinj; by Forest wService men 
at meetintrs arran^red esjiecially by Conjiressmen for nearly two years. 
We have, upon tlie recpiest of Conijressmen, sent our men to address 
meetin<rs of re<;uhir associations or rejxuhir meetinirs called in other 
ways, but not meetin^^s arran<:ed by the Congressmen themselves. 

Sir. Moss. Then I call your attention to this j)articular statement, 
which you will find on pa<^e .3150 of the temporary Record: 

Kellofjp;. R. S., luka. West Point, and Durant. Mi,«s., Mt'mi)his, Tenn., and return, 
to deliver 13 addresses upon forestry at meetings arranged by Congressman Candler, 
of First Mississippi district. 

Is that statement true or f alse ^ 

Mr. Potter. I cotdd not say without lookinj; it up to iind out. 
Mr. Graves may have the j)aiiers with him. 

Mr. Moss. ^Voul(l your department reco<;ni7.e a recpiest of that 
kind to arrange a series of 13 addresses by a Member of C()n<;ress ^ 

Mr. Potter. It has done so in the past, but not recently. From 
the Forest Service point of view the question was one of educational 
opportimity. It was thought that the people wouKl profit by gettintj; 
together in meetings and having some one address tliem on forestry 
questions for the piu'pose of enlightening them as to forest preserva- 
tion and the better utilization of forest products and giving them 
advice in reference to what they might do on their own wood lots in 
the way of forest improvement. There is a general interest along 
that line and we have a great many recjuests from associations and 
from meetings of the people to have our men come and talk with them 
and advise theiy. as to the lines on which they shouKl i)roceed to 
improve forest conditions in particular localities. 

Mr. Moss. What evidence of public interest would you re{[uire 
before yon woMi^arrange a series of meetings like that ( 

Mr. Pottiw. As a rule, requests from cl\ambers of commerce, an 
association rei>resentative of interested peoj^le, gatherings of farmers, 
and other organizations of that kind which woidd be ri'cognized as 
promising an audience which would proiit by the information given. 

Mr. Moss. I will refer a little more to the Record, and 1 wish to 
place in the record that in referring to tliis matter I have no personal 
interest in it, esj)ecially none as against the gentleman from Missis- 
sippi or the department, and I want you to place your construction 
upon this and have you meet it fully: 

Mr. Tawney. The expense of delivering the 13 addre.*ses in the first district of 
Mississipi)i, 1 might say, wa.s $13?. 98. 

Mr. .M.\NN. I know, but that is not important; but did it help to reelect the gen- 
tleman? 

Mr. Tawney. I presume so. That was evidently the i)urpo.*e. I could not imagine 
a more effective method of campaigning than that, especially if the Member can go 
around and introduce the gentleman from the department who has been brought there 
at his instance (jr through his inOuence and at government ex|)ense. No commenda- 
tion toa Member's constituents is comparable to that xvhuh isapjvirently disinterested. 

You will notice the statement: "That was evidently the purj)ose.'' 
Whose purpose, the purpose of the department or the purpose of Mr. 
Candler! 

••-. ; JUN 23 lyiU 



FOREST SERVICE. 3 

Mr. Potter. It certainly was not the purpose of the department. 
The Forest Service felt assured that there was a pubhc advantage in 
having Mr. Kellogg attend those meetings and talk on forestry ques- 
tions. I would like to say that prior to Mr. Pinchot's separation from 
the service I was in charge of the Branch of Grazing, handling all the 
range questions, and had no connection with this part of the work. 
For that reason I am not personally familiar with the details of the 
trips. 

Mr. Moss. If you will give us the name of the gentleman who can 
answer these (juestions, we will be glad to have him come before the 
committee. 

Mr. Potter. I can in a general way, except in detail. 

Mr. Moss. I regard the statement in the Record as being unjust to 
Mr. CVmdler. I want to say that it is either very unjust to Mr. 
Candler or it is very unjust to the department, and that is a state- 
ment which has been made by one of the most prominent Members 
of the Congress ui)on the majority side, and the charge is that Mr. 
Candler arranged these meetings to assist in his reelection. 

Mr. Potter. I think, Mr. Moss, that the records of the office will 
show that there was a decided response from the people there to the 
lectures, and that Mr. Candler requested the department to have 
some one go there because he knew the people would profit by the 
lectures. 

Mr. Moss. Is Mr. Candler the only Member of Congress who has 
made a request of the department ? 

Mr. Potter. No, sir. Except for one series of addresses in 
Alabama in the summer of 1908 there have been no addresses at 
meeting arranged by Congressmen, but we have, at the request of 
Congressmen, sent men to attend other meetings. I can not mention 
the exact cases, but under those conditions, that there was to be a 
general meeting. I can cite you one instance. TJie Kansas State 
Fair is going to be held this fall in Kansas and we have had a request 
from one of the Members of Congress to have one of our men deliver 
a few lectures there. The people are very much interested in tree 
l^lanting in that section. They are going to have lechires on other 
subjects, and we have promised, at the request of a Congressman, to 
have one of our members deliver some lectures there. Those are 
the conditions under which we send men at the request of Congress- 
men . 

Mr. Zappone. I would like to say that I can find no record of those 
expenditures in the travel report for the fiscal year 1909. If made, 
they must have been made in some prior year, 1908, or prior thereto. 
I ask ])ermission to insert in the record the facts in this case. 

Mr. Moss. I should be glad to have the matter placed in the 
record, if the chairman is willing. 

Mr. Zappone. There is nothing in the 1909 report at all. Therefore 
I need add nothing further to the record. 

Mr. Moss. I would like to ask you again, so far as your knowledge 
goes, if there has been any relation between the Forestry Bureau and 
any Member of Congress that would justify the statement that 
men have been sent out at public expense to assist Members of 
Congress to secure their reelection ? 

Mr. Potter. No, sir; there is no justification for any such charge. 

Mr. Zappone. Neither in the Forestry Bureau nor any other 
branch of the Department of Agriculture. 



4 FOREST SERVICE. 

The ("iiAii:.MA.\. il iiii^ht he wvW l«) stale that 1 hiixo no rocollec- 
tion of any serious eontest huviiif^ been nuulo af^ainst the roeloction 
of any of the Mississij)pi Members in recent years. They seem to 
have matters all their own way. Tlie very small vote shown in the 
districts would indicate no serious contest having been made against 
Mr. Candler or any oth(>r Mississippi MendxT in recent years. 

Mr. Moss. Refeiring back to the statement: "To deliver ad- 
dresses to women's clubs." on what occasions has the Forestry 
Buieau sent out lecturers to make addiesses to women's dubs? 

Mr. PoTTKR. We had Mr. Hall, the assistant forester in charge of 
the Madison laboratory, attend the nu'eting of Federated Women's 
Clubs in Cincinnati, ()hio, a short time ago, upon their request to 
deliver a lecture to them on the subject of foiestry. Il happened that 
he was obliged to be in that neighl)orhood for othei- reasons just at 
that time, so that he could make the addre.ss practically without ex- 
pense to the service, and for that reason the rec{uest for a s|)eaker 
was granted. His lecture was princi|)ally on the importance of a 
full utilization of the forest i)roilucts of the country, to j)revent 
waste and so conserve our wood supj)ly: and he exi)laine(l to them 
the work which is being done in the Forest Service laboratories along 
the line of linding better uses for woods, in order that much of the 
timber which at the present time is being wasted may be utilized 
in manufacture, and that woods regarded as t)f inferior quality may 
be brought into use through j)reservative treatment or other improved 
methods. That is, to find a better utilization and more uses for in- 
ferior grades of timber that are not now used to any great extent, 
and to utilize more fully the waste from the mills. Forestry is a sub- 
ject which the women's clubs of the country have alwa^ s taken a 
great interest in, and while we can not (ill a great many requests of 
that kind, in the case of this recent large meeting of the Federated 
Women's Clubs in Cincinnati, we sent Slv. Hall to deliver a lecture 
and it was commented on in the newspapers as being one of the most 
interesting lectures delivered there. 

Mr. Moss. Are the lectures delivered before these women's clubs 
especially |)repared for women ( 

Mr. Potter. Xo. sir. 

Mr. Moss. A ilifferent subject-matter than would be delivered 
before an association of men ( 

Mr. PoTTKi{. .\ot ])articularly. 

Mr. (iR.vvEs. May I interru])t there? 

Mr. Moss. I should be glad to have you do so. 

Mr. Gr.wes. Before I entered the Forest Service I was connected 
with Yale University in the forestry <lepartment. I liatl occasion 
from time to time to give ])ublic lectiwes on invitation and occasion- 
ally, before woukmi's clui)s, among other audiences, and I always 
nuule it a ])oint to talk on ])ractical tilings. Just to give an illustra- 
tion of the practical sid<> of it, I will refer to one lecture which 1 ga\c 
in the State of CouTiecticut before a woman's club, in which I talked 
about the ])ractical side of forestry, urging the ]ieople to introduce 
forestry in their woodlands, and as a result of that lecture before tint 
club I got one of the large cities of Connecticut to start ])lantiiig on 
its watershed, and I got one of the largest owners of wooilhinds in 
Connecticut to introduce forestry on ids land. I simply speak of 
that as an illustration of the practical results of lectures, even before 
Women's clubs. 



FOREST SERVICE. 5 

Mr. Moss. Is there anything in the subject-matter of these addresses 
dehvered to women's clubs that ought to cause a Member of Congress 
to be filled with amazement ? 

Mr. Potter. Not anything that I know of. 

Mr. Moss. This is the statement that Mr. Tawney made: 

I find, to my amazement, that in one bureau, namely, the Forestry Bureau, during 
the fiscal year 1908, there were a great many employees in the Bureau of Forestry 
traveling — what for? To deliver addresses to women's clubs. 

The question is what kind of addresses is your department making 
that would fill a man with the experience of Mr. Tawney in public 
affairs with amazement ? 

Mr. P(^TTER. They are addresses on forestry along practical lines, 
to give them the information they are very anxious to have and to 
promote the best use of the forests of the country through the spread 
of knowledge concerning forestry. 

Mr. Moss. ''Addresses at county seats on educational questions, 
questions entirely foreign to forestr}^." What educational matters 
''entirely foreign to forestry" has your department been sending 
out lecturers to giA^e ? 

Mr. Potter. None. I would like also for Mr. Graves to answer 
that question. 

Mr. Graves. The address or lecture would refer to education in 
forestry. 

Mr. Moss. Is that statement of ]\rr. Tawney's true or false ? 

Mr. Graves. I do not know what Mr. Tawney referred to. I do not 
know of any lectures on education except those pertaining to forest 
education. These concern instruction at forest schools, or the subject 
of introducing elementary forestry subjects into other schools, just as 
the subject of agricultural education is taken up in some of the 
schools. The end sought is to have the farmer's boy taught in 
school things that will enable him to handle the farm wood lot more 
intelligently. 

Mr. Moss. As you were not present when I read this I will read it 
again for your information. It need not go into the record. 

(Mr. Moss then read the statement referred to.) 

Mr. Moss. Is that statement true or false ? 

Mr. Graves. No lectiu-es have been given on education by mem- 
bers of the Forest Service that did not deal with instruction in 
forestry. 

Mr. Moss. Are your sources of information such that if such lec- 
tures were given you would know it ? 

Mr. Graves. I have been in very close touch with the Forest 
Service for a number of years. In fact, I was connected with it ten 
years ago. I know what the policy of the service in those matters 
has been. Of course, I have not seen the lectures, and did not attend 
the lectures, but I know what the policy has been, and I am confident 
that all lectures have been such as I have described. 

Mr. Moss. So far as your information goes, you would consider that 
that criticism was not well founded ? 

Mr. Graves. I should, sir. 

Mr. Moss. "Addresses at county seats on educational questions." 
That would indicate, I presume, that the addresses were located at 
county seats without regard to the question as to whether the people 



6 FOREST SERVK!E. 

there \v(M(' interested in tlmt purticiihir subject or not. 1 ])iesume 
tluit would be a fair intei-]iretjiti()n of tlie languu^re. What .iroverns 
the (|uestion of deci(Hn<j wliere tliese lectures shall l)e fjiven ? 

Mr. Potter. It would sinij)ly be a (|uestion as to wheie the larfjest 
and most representative audience of tiie kind that coidd ])rolil l)y the 
lecture could be assend)led. rn<loid)tedly the |)eo])le themselves had 
selected the county seat as the most convenient ])lace to hold their 
meeting:. 

Mr. Moss. "In lookinjx over this report," .Mr. Tawney says, '"I 
find that a man by the name of Betts went to New York to (leliver 
an address before'a Carriaire Builders' National Association." "Will 
you please tell the committee who Mr. Betts is ( 

Mr. Graves. Mr. B<'tts is connected with the branch of forest 
products, and as Mr. Potter has already explained in connection with 
the address of Mr. Hall before the Women's Federation we are very 
much interested in the cpiestion of wood utilization and the saving of 
waste. The purpose of that lectui'e uiuloubtediy — because it is like 
a good many lectures which have been given before industrial a.s.so- 
ciations — was to interest tho.se people in the subject of clo.se utiliza- 
tion of forest products and the prevention of waste, and to a.ssist 
them in learning of the various species which perhaps they do not 
know much about yet, an<l as to the strength of woods which they 
might use, but do not. F'or instance, the Forest Service tests have 
shown how present sj)(>cihcations as to hickory may be modified so as 
to reduce waste without reducing strength. It is a matter of i)ublic 
advantage that hickory users should know about this and also about 
the rate at which they are using up their supplies and where they will 
be a few years hence if they do not look ahead. In other worils, to 
explain the uses of wood as applied to that particular industry, and 
the relation of forestry to future supplies. That un{h)ubtedly was 
the reason for their requesting a lecture from him. 

Mr. Mciss. Is Mr. Betts regularly on the pay roll of the Government ? 
Mr. Gr.vves. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Moss. Where is his office? 
Mr. Gi{AVEs. Mr. Betts is now located at Denver. 
Mr. Moss. His headquarters^ 
Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Moss. What is his salary ? 
Mr. Graves. Two thousand dollars. 

Mr. Moss. W'hat are his duties when at his ollice ? Just give us a 
statement of his duties. 

Mr. Graves. The headciuarters of our i)roduct work is at Madison, 
Wis., where we have a laboratory and where the work on forest 
products is chiefly concentrated. In connection with the mitional 
forests there are a great many (|uestions which come uj) in the utili- 
zation of woods in the West, and we have several men at our dill'erent 
head(|uarters in the W\'st who have charge of that work. At Denver, 
in connection with district 2. there is a great deal of demand for 
information and the gathering of information reganling forest 
products. For example, there is a good market for mine timbers, 
and the subject of preserving mine timbers so as to extend their 
life is a very imj)ortant one to the mining industry. The (piestion 
of wood preservation to enable the utilization of the lower grades 
of woods on the national forests for j)urj)oses for which there is now 



FOREST SERVICE. 7 

no market is also important. There are an enormous number of 
such local questions, and so we have at the district headquarters Mr. 
Betts, who takes care of that work. Then we have in connection 
with the university at Boulder, Colo., a subsidiary laboratory where 
we are carryino; on some experimental tests alont? these lines. Air. 
Betts also has general direction of that work. 

Mr. Moss. Coming back now to this specific statement that ''Betts 
went to New York to deliver an address before a carriage builders' 
national association," what connection has the Bureau of Forestry 
with the Carriage Builders' National Association ? 

Mr. Graves. That is an association of wood users, their particular 
purpose being building carriages, and our relation to them is like 
our relation to many other industries and associated industries, to 
cooperate in every way we can in the matter of the use of woods, 
and to try to interest them practically in the adoption of measures 
which it is to the advantage of the public as well as to their OAvn 
advantage that they should adopt. If we can give them informa- 
tion regarding the use of woods or the sources of woods, new species 
which they can use which will provide that industry in the future 
with the kind of woods they need, that has been considered one of 
our functions; that we should cooperate in that way because of the 
public need of forest conservation. 

Mr. Moss. Did an invitation come to the department for Mr. 
Betts to give this lecture, or did he volunteer his services^ 

Mr. Graves. Without question, there was an invitation. 

Mr. Moss. From the association ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. To Mr. Betts personally, or to the department ? 

Mr. Graves. To the ilepartment, I believe. 

Mr. Moss. Then the department sent Mr. Betts ? 

Mr. Graves. Delegated Mr. Betts as the man who knew most 
about that subject. 

Mr. Moss. Did this authorization come within the law? 

Mr. Graves. I should think so; that has always been my judg- 
ment about it. 

Mr. Moss. In your judgment, is it good policy? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. And the expenditure of money was justified? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. This is an iirustration : "H. S. Betts, 
address on structural timbers before the Connecticut Society of Civil 
Engineers, Washington to New York and return, expenditure, $26.05." 

Mr. Moss. The expense account is given as $12 ? 

Mr. Graves. This is the other item that Mr. Zappone spoke of. 
We have been carrying on experiments in the testing of the streno;th 
of difi'erent timbers\ and this was an address on that subject showing 
the result of the work of the Forest Service. 

Mr. Moss. Who is W. C. Barnes ? 

Mr. Potter. An inspector of grazing. 

Mr. Moss. With headquarters at what point ? 

Mr. Potter. Washington. 

Mr. AIoss. What is his salary ? 

Mr. Potter. Two thousand four hundred dollars. 

Mr. Moss. When he is at his office he is here in Washington ? 



8 FOREST SERVICE. 

Mr. I'o'i'iKit. ^'cs. sir: hut his woil^ is hiriicly in the iiis])('ctit)ii of 
jj^razinir <>ii the iialioiial forests in the ^V(^st. 
Wi. Mr. Moss. Toll us what his odicial duties are. 

f^ Mr. PoTTEK. The inspection of tiie live-stock ran<jes on the national 
forests in the West. We have about 30,000 stockmen usin<j the ran<i;es 
in the national forests, who ijjraze u])on it about 7,S00,000 head of 
sheep and goats and 1, .500, 000 head of cattle. Mr. Barnes's prin- 
cipal duty is to inspect all that business in order that the Forest 
Service may conduct it in a businesslike wa}' and in a way that 
will accomplish the objects which we have in the regulation of graz- 
ing, that is, the ])revention of injury to the forests and at the same 
time the utilization of the forage resources of the land just as fully 
as ])ossible. 

Mr. Moss. The grazing is paid for? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. Does Mr. Barnes have anything to do with collecting 
the rents? 

Mr. Potter. Xo, sir. The charges for the permits are remitted 
direct to the United States depository by the permittee. AVhen his 
ajiplication for a permit is approved a notice is sent him to remit a 
certain amount to the United States dej^ository. Mr. Barnes has 
nothing whatever to do with the handling of the money. 

Mr. Moss. What authority does Mr. Barnes have over flocks that 
he finds grazing on the public domain ( 

Mr. Potter. lie would have authority to take any action neces- 
sary to protect the forest. If he found trespassing stock upon the 
national forest grazing without a permit, it would be within his 
authority to remove them, or if the circumstances appeared to 
warrant it, to arrest the man in charge of the stock and take him 
before a I'nited States commissioner for hearing. 

Mr. Moss. In his ofhcial ca]>acity has he any business relation what- 
ever with the men who own the stock grazing there? 

Mr. Potter; '^'es, sir; in talking over with them (Questions in 
regard to the range allotments, the proper seasons during which 
stock should be allowed to graze on a certain range, thos^ are 
important matters in which he has direct authority. On his inspec- 
tion trij) if he fimls a range is being used through too long a season, 
that the stock was allowed to go on too early, that is, before the range 
is ready, he would immediately take action to have that corrected. 
If he found that they were allowing .50.000 head of stock on a range 
which should have only 40,000, he would inunediately make a recom- 
mendation for the reduction of the number, so that the damage from 
over grazing might be checked. All of these things relate to a proper 
use of the forest. 

^Ir. Moss. In a measure the nrolits which woukl arise to the owners 
of the stock would come from nis recommendation? 

Mr. Potter. To some extent; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. Mr. Tawney referred to a visit; I will read it: 

To ad(lrp.'*^^ iiumhIxts of Gunnison Stock Growers' As.«ociati()n, then to Denver to 
assist in adjusting; ^rra/ing questions arising at American National Live Stock Associa- 
tion convention, and then to Sah Lake to attend su]u>rvisors' meetings and to attend 
to general grazing matters; exjienses, $2-10.iri, paid from the general exi)ensos, Forest 
Serviro, 190S. 

Mr. Potter. The meeting at Gunnison was a meeting of the stock 
men using the Ciunnison national forest. uj)on which we are grazing 



FOREST SEEVICE. 9 

something like 20,000 head of cattle, to talk over with them some 
range experiments which they wished to have conducted. They 
were suffering loss from poisonous plants and they were very anxious 
to cooperate with the service by having an expert go there to examine 
and find out what poisonous plants were causing the loss of the stock, 
and also to talk over with him questions of range allotment, dividing 
the range into districts between different communities and different 
associations of stock men, in order that they might have a more satis- 
factory use of the range, and to talk over with them general matters 
pertaining to the use of the Gunnison national forest range. The ad- 
dress before the American National Live Stock Association was upon 
the invitation of the association. That is one of the large live-stock 
associations of the country. The American National Live Stock 
Association and the National Wool Growers' Association are the 
two large stock associations which represent the stockmen of the 
country. A great many of the users of the national forests are 
members of those associations, and at their conventions they discuss 
methods for better utilization of the forest reserves, and it was in 
order that Mr. Barnes might be there to confer with them in regard 
to those matters that he attended the American National Live 
Stock meeting. Then at Salt Lake, he went there to meet the 
supervisors of the forests in that district, to talk with them in reference 
to grazing matters in their forests and to advise them in reference to 
future progress in that work. 

Mr. Moss. The supervisors' meeting — are the supervisors govern- 
ment officers ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. What are their duties? 

Mr. Potter. They are in direct charge of the national forests. In 
District 4 there are about 30 forests, each under the direct charge of a 
supervisor. He deals directly with the people on the forest. 

Mr. Moss. Is Mr. Barnes a superior over the supervisors ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. They are his subordinates? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. It says: "To assist in adjusting grazing questions aris- 
ing at American National Live Stock Association convention." What 
would be the questions which would arise at that convention? 

Mr. Potter. Matters of general importance to the stock men as a 
whole wdiich would come up at the convention, questions in reference 
to modifications of regulations would be discussed. At the super- 
visors' meeting there would be a discussion of the details of individual 
cases. There would be that difi'erence. At the meeting of the asso- 
ciation it would be a discussion of principles, and at the meeting of 
the supervisors a discussion of the details of individual cases. 

Mr. Moss. I am quoting again from Mr. Tawney: 

Mr. Barnes went to points in Illinois, Missouri, and return, to confer with officers 
of the General Federation of Women's Clubs for the courses of study of forestry. 

What relation would Mr. Barnes have with, the general federation of 
women's clubs on courses of study of forestry? 

JVIr. Potter. That was not JVIr. Barnes, but Mi". Burns, who has 
charge of our publications, among other things. That trip was made 
because the women's clubs were planning courses of study on the 



10 FOREST SERVICE. 

subject of l'oiv>trv. to Ix' |)ursiUMl rotiularly l>y tjroups in tliflferent 
cliil)s all over the count rv. Mr. Burns's trip was made also in order 
to cTjither information for our ])roducts j)<v»ple. Someone else would 
lia\e had to be sent for this, if he had not been able to gather it, inci- 
dental to the other work. 

Mr. Moss. Was that an invitational trip ^ 

Mr. Potter. Yes. sir; 1 think so. 

Mr. Moss. From whom was the invitation received? 

Mr. Potter. F'rom officials of the federation. 

Mr. Moss. In your judjjment, does that work come within the scope 
of the work of your i)ureau ( 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. And the expenditure come within the terms of the 
appropriation law ( 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. You would justify it as money well exj)ended ( 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; I would. It is advising the people as to 
better means of utilizing the forest resources of the country. 

Mr. Moss. Mr. Burns went to New York City and returned to see 
about the preparation of pictures for educational work in schools on 
the general suoject of forestry. What schools were those pictures to 
be used in ( 

Mr. Potter. That 1 would have to look up. The records show that 
this trip was taken by Mr. Burns, the luan in charge of the Forest 
Service pul^licatioHs. This travel was in 1908. At that time there 
was a plan to get out sets of pictures illustrating ])roj^)er and improper 
care of forests of different kinds and regions in the I nited States and 
forest products. The idea was that if luilf-tone sets of such pictures 
could DC made available for use in schools they could be sent with 
accompanying {printed matter which would enable them to be used 
intelligently, brmgout their significance, and supply facts and promote 
the teaching of forestry, which in turn woidd jiromote the practice of 
forestry. The plan had to be given up })ecause the cost of getting out 
the necessary number of pictures would have been too great. The 
demand for them from schools would probably have been heavy. 

Mr. Moss. Is the statement true that he made the trip for that 
purpose ( 

Mr. Potter. Undoubtedly. 

Mr. Graves. I do not know about that matter from my own 
knowledge, for it was two years ago. 

Mr. Zapi'OXE. All of the expenditures referred to by Mr. Tawney 
were made during the fiscal year 1908 or some ])rior fiscal year. 
They were not made in the fiscal year 1909, the year we have imder 
discu.ssion here. 

Mr. PoTTEi{. 1 have not any personal knowledge of the trip, i)ut 
undoubtedly Mi". Buren did make the trip for the purpose stated. 

Mr. Moss. Will you tell the committee what interest the depart- 
ment is taking in pre])aring ])ictures for educational work in schools 
on the general subject of forestiy i 

Mr. Graves. There is very much interest along that line. We 
have a collection of photogiaphs, and I know in the past that some- 
times ])hotogia"|)hs have been sent to forest schools illustrating the 
national forests or some points in forest work which is of value to 
the schools in training bovs in forestrv. We have a collection of 



FOREST SERVICE. 11 

photographs, and sometimes prints which have been rejected from 
the collection as better pictures become available are sent to schools 
which ask for pictures to use in connection with the teaching of 
forestry. Such pictures would be thrown away if they were not 
given away. But we have no regular arrangement for furnishing 
material to schools. 

Mr. Moss. Is your department expending any money in getting 
up text-books or other work for forestry schools ^ 

Mr. Graves. We have not gotten up any regular text-books, and 
of course we are not writing text-books as such. Some of our 
publications, however — as, for instance, Mr. Pinchot's Primer of For- 
estry — have been in wide demand for use in schools and school libraries. 
We have calls from schools, secondary schools, as to the sort of mate- 
rial that ought to be taught in the schools and what sort of work 
in forestry should be introduced in the rural schools and agricultural 
high schools. We have sent out material of that sort to aid edu- 
cators in solving that problem. 

Mr. Moss. What class of schools, do you presume, would be 
included in this statement: 

To see about the preparation of pictures for educational work in schools on the 
general subject of forestry. 

Mr. Graves. I should say both forestry schools and others. This 
plan, however, did not go through. Whether any pictures have been 
sent to other schools, except discards from the collection, I do not 
know. Do you, Mr. Potter? 

Mr. Potter. No; I do not. 

Mr. Graves. I do not know about that. 

Mr. Moss. Judge Booher has suggested that the committee should 
have some of the pictures. 

Mr. Graves. We have a very large collection of pictures and we 
would be glad to bring up some samples. 

Mr. Booher. In that way the committee might get a better idea 
of their necessity and usefulness ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. We have about 22,000 pictures. 

Mr. Moss. I think the committee would be interested in knowing 
to what extent your department is preparing pictures for use in 
forestry schools, and if you are preparing pictures of that class, then 
the committee would like to see them. 

Mr. Graves. We have a large collection of pictures and when a 
request is made we sometimes make loans where we think it will do 
good. I will be very glad to send some of the pictures to the com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Moss. Is R. S. Kellogg connected with your department ? 

Mr. Potter. He was connected with the branch of products. He 
has left the service to accept a position with a private enterprise. 
During his employment he was connected with the branch of products 
and his work was largely in reference to the preparation of forest 
statistics. 

Mr. Moss. Is he connected with the department at the present 
time ? 

Mr. Potter. No, sir. 

Mr. Moss. When did he sever his connection with the department ? 

Mr. Potter. About two months aero. 



12 FOREST SERVICE. 

Mr. Graves. He has some connection in this way: We call on him 
for assistance in the preparation of statistical work. We have no one 
now who can do it as well as Mr. Kellot;<j can. 

;Mr. Moss. Did he discontinue his connection witii the department 
because his ollicial duties devolved uj)on some one else if 

Mr. Ctravs:s. lie retired l)ecause lie wanted to become secretary 
of a lumber associatit)n in Wisconsin. 

Mr. Moss. When he was with the department where was his ollice? 

Mr. CIkaves. In Washington. 

Mr. Moss. I find in this report, quoting from Mr. Tawney: 

Kelloiwr, R. S., to Kaaterskill, X. Y.. and return, to arldre.*? .semiannual meeting 
of National Association of Box Manufacturers' Association. 

What relation did Mr. Kellogg have with the Box Manufacturers' 
Association ? 

Mr. Gr.wes. About the same relation as Mr. Betts had with the 
Carriage Builders' Association. That is the same kind of a case. 
Unquestionably, an invitation came to the Forest Service for a 
lecture before that association, and Mr. Kellogg was selected to give 
the lecture. 

^Ir. Moss. Was tlu-^ lecture given u]>on the invitation of the 
association '. 

Mr. (tkaves. L'nquestionably. 

Mr. Moss. Did that invitation come to the deiniitment or to Mr. 
Kellogg ])ersonally '■ 

Mr. Graves. They come to the dej)artment, but sometimes an 
invitation of that kind will come to the department with a request 
for a certain man. I do not know whether that was so in that 
particular case. 

Mr. Moss. In your judgment, does this woi-k of Mr. Kellogg's come 
within the terms of yoin- appropriation law >. 

Mr. Graves. In my judgment, it does. 

Mr. Moss. Do you feel that it is a gootl policy on the i)art of the 
dej^artment to com|)iy with such requests^ 

Mr. Graves. I think within a limited measure, and where such 
lectures can reach wood users or owners of woodlantls and where the 
information will lead to a better utilization of forest or forest products, 
I feel, emidiatically. it is justified. 

Mr. Moss. These general expenditures have been referred to by 
Chairman Tawney as an abuse growing out of the fact that there has 
been a lump-stnn apj)ropiiatio-n to pay travel exj^enses in your depart- 
ment and that there shoidd be some remedy suggested. You feel 
that it is not an abuse. Now, the fact that you are getting a lump- 
sum appropriation for travel, does that encourage sending out and 
filling these invitations^ 

Mr. Graves. I do not know exactly how to answer that (piestion, 
because I do not quite understand it, but there is an api)ropriation 
which is available tor that i)urj)ose, which simply enables the sending 
out of the men. I shoidd call an abuse sending out men where they 
could not do any good or not enough good to justify the expenditure 
of time and money. 

Mr. Moss. Let me read the exact language and then base a specific 
question upon it : 

I do submit that there should be suftirient attention paid to these reports by the 
committees havinp jurisdiction of appropriations for a sjiecific department and the 
committee on expenditures in these departments, and to report to the House legisla- 



FOREST SERVICE. 13 

tion that will put a stop to the abuses that exist under general or lump-sum appropria- 
tions that are being expended in defraying the expense of departmental employees 
who are sent throughout the country promiscuously for the purpose of delivering 
addresses upon any and upon every occasion that they may be requested to do so, 
either by Members of Congress or by anybody else. 

I will ask you some questions based upon that statement. First, 
under what conditions is your department sending out members to 
make addresses ? Tell us just exactly on what ground you would 
.feel justified in sending out a lecturer. 

Mr. Graves. Where the lecturer will reach an audience which needs 
information and can use information regarding the better utilization 
of forests or forest products, we do not send out men indiscrimi- 
nately. There is an enormous number of requests which come in for 
lectures which we do not attempt to fill. We only send a lecturer 
out where we feel certain that he is going to reach an audience which 
needs the information. I should like to put in the following state- 
ment from the last annual report of the Forester concerning these 
addresses. 

These were given, in response to requests, before gatherings of national forest users, 
trade associations of wood users and similar bodies, chambers of commerce and boards 
of trade, meetings of farmers, educational assemblies, and the like. Except as these 
addresses were made in the course of travel necessitated by other ofhcial duties, the 
expense incurred was usually reimbursed. Only a minor part of the requests for ad- 
dresses could be granted. 

Mr. Moss. Speaking of an audience, what constitutes an audience, 
in your mind ? 

Mr. Graves. I should say anywhere from 50 up. If they are the 
right sort of people, I think 50 men might justify a lecture. 

Mr. Moss. You have used the expression "right sort of people?" 

Mr. Graves. I' mean men who need the information. 

The Chairman. And wdio can utilize it ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. I have spoken before 50 farmers, each 
one an owner of woodland, telling how their woodland, in my judg- 
ment, could be better handled. I consider them the right sort of 
men, because they are owners of woodland and can utilize the infor- 
mation. 

Mr. Moss. Is it your thought and does your department look for- 
ward to the time when you can send a lecturer to every 50 men 
who are interested in this work ? 

Mr. Graves. No, sir. 

Mr. Moss. What proportion of those requests would you like to 
honor ? 

Mr. Graves. Only a very few. 

Mr. Moss. How many would you like to honor? 

Mr. Graves. From the standpoint of the Government, I do not 
see how we could possibly honor more than a few, associations like 
the Association of Civil Engineers of Connecticut, or the carriage 
manufacturers, or some association of that sort, who are directly 
interested in the use of forest products. 

Mr. Moss. You do not look forward to the time when you can 
honor all of them ? 

Mr. Graves. No, sir. 

Mr. Moss. Only a very small percentage ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 



14 FOREST SERVICE. 

Mr. Moss. Do you look forward to an increaso in expenditures in 
sendinii; these men out ( 

Mr. (lu.vvEs. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Moss. To a deerease in expenditures? 

Mr. CiH.vvEs. Fnquestionahly. 

Mr. Moss. On wiiat ground do you expect to decrease llu' ex])end- 
itures ? 

Mr. Graves. Because the need of the dissemination of information 
on forestry on tlie i)art of the Government and at the cost of the 
Government l)v methods of that sort is deci^easing. because tliere is 
an increasing knowledge, and because tliere is a constantly increasing 
inimher of other persons outside the Government who can meet the 
situation. 

Mr. Moss. Is it not true. also, that tliciv is an increasing demand 
for forestry work as our national forests hccoinc depleted ( 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. But you still look to the fact that there will be fewer 
calls upon the Government in the future than in the past ( 

Mr. CiRaves. Fewer calls which can be justly accommodated. 

Mr. Moss. Coming back to the question of the lump-sum a]ipro- 
priation, is there any abuse growing out of the expenditure of the 
lump-Sinn a])j)i()])riation in your bureau ^ 

Mr. (iHaves. 1 can not see how there is. 

Mr. Moss. Has the fact that your department has been given a 
lump sum appropriation by Congress made you more liberal in using 
this appropriation than if we were to recommend that you be given 
your a])pi()priation on a different basis ? 

Mr. Graves. I can not see why. 

Mr. Zappone. In regard to the lump fund appropriation for the 
Forest Service. I desire to say, for the information of the com- 
mittee, that Congress at its last session divided the appropriation 
into 150 heads or specific subaj^projjriations, which action, I 
think, will cover a})soluteIy everything that Mr. Tawney will 
desire in that direction. At that time it was the only bureau 
whose lump fund appropriation had not been so divided. The 
Forest Service was establishing outside districts and otherwise under- 
going a reorganization, and conseciuently was not prepareil to make 
that division when the a])i)ro})riati()ns of the other bureaus were sub- 
divided, but jH-omised to do so the next year. That has now been 
done to take effect from the 1st of July next. 

The Cmairman. Yon think that will answer the criticism ( 

Mr. Zappoxe. Absolutely, except as regards the lump-fund appro- 
priation for traveling exj)enses. I know of no department whicli lias 
a specific sum set aside for traveling expenses. Some allow a per diem 
in lieu of subsistence; but every dej)artment is allowed a latitude in 
the matter, as it is j)roblematical just what amount will be required 
for that purpose. 

Mr. Moss. Mr. Tawney states fiiitlicr: 

Every day they are abnent from the department their resiidar work in the department 
ceases, and the Government is ]iayini; them their full .salary and receive.^ nothing in 
return . 

When one of these men whose work is here in Washington leaves 
Washington and goes away, is it a fact that his work here is neglected ? 



FOREST SERVICE. 15 

Mr. Potter. No, sir; it is carried on by otlier members of the 
service. 

Mr. Moss. You substitute a person in his phice ? 

Mr. Potter. Either that or some one who is carrying on another 
Une of work who can look after the affairs of the ofHce of the man who 
is away keeps his work going. Vie make a strong effort in the Forest 
Service to have the men in one hne of work become thoroughly famil- 
iar with the details of the other lines of work, so that in an emergency 
of illness or a call for a man to go out for some si)ecial purpose there 
will be others there who are thoroughly competent to keep the work 
going, so there will be no check in the carrying on of the work. 

Mr. BooHER. Will you tell me what connection the Forestry 
Service has with the New England Water Works Association? 

Mr. Graves. I think I can answer that, sir. W^as that in connec- 
tion with a lecture ? 

Mr. BooHER. I see that Mr. Kellogg, on September 21-23, 1908, 
went from Washington to Atlantic City to address the annual meet- 
ing of the New England Water Works Association. 

Mr. Graves. Well, as I am not familiar with that particular trip 
and do not know very much about that association, 1 assume, from 
my past experience with water companies in New England, that this 
was in connection with the practice of forestry on watersheds. 

Mr. Booker. Did this association invite Mr. Kellogg to come there ? 

Mr. Graves. Unquestionably. 

Mr. BooHER. These water works associations are usually very 
wealthy and powerful, are they not, and abundantly able to pay 
their own expenses if they want lecturers ? 

Mr. Graves. The purpose of such a lecture would be to interest 
them in planting trees and taking care of the woods and the protec- 
tion of the city watersheds. 

Mr. BooHER. Would that be to their interest, to the advantage of 
the waterworks company, to do that ? 

Mr. Graves. It would involve, unquestionably, considerable addi- 
tional expense in the management of the property, but it would be 
of value to the people in protecting the water. 

Mr. Booher. Would it be of value to the waterworks people, the 
men who own the waterworks ? 

Mr. Graves. I think so. 

Mr. Booher. Well, why not let them pay the expense of it ? Can 
you see any good reason why they should not ? 

Mr. Graves. Ordinarily I think they ought to do so, though it is 
impossible to make a hard-and-fast rule; a good deal depends on the 
circumstances. The}^ may not know enough about the subject to be 
fully awake to its practical value for them, and often the public value 
of getting them interested justifies the expenditure, i think they 
usm^lly pay the transportation. I do not think there is anything 
charged up against the Government except for meals. 

Mr. Booher. Certainly, from the 21st to the 23d, there would not 
be a charge of $15.25 for meals alone. I see another item here to 
address meetings of Grain Dealers' National Association and National 
Hickory Association, St. Louis. Now, grain dealers' associations are 
usually composed of very wealthy people, as well as these hickory 
associations. Do you know am'thing about it ? 



16 FOREST SERVICE. 

Mr. (rRAVES. I know that we have been cooijeratinj; with liickorv 
associations with reference to the \\hf)h' <|uestion of tlie snpply of 
liickorv timber and the securin*]; of an a<hM|uate supply of that tini- 
bei", as it is beinu; exhausted very fast. 

Mr. Ii()()HEi{. Do you know who constitute this association ( Is 
it not composed of such firms as the Studebakere and firms of that 
character, or that class of people ? 

Mr. Graves. I do not know, but undoubtedly they aie peoj)le of 
very substantial means. 

Mr. BooiiEH. Now, the <rrain dealers' association, that is usually 
composed of i^rain sjjeculators, is it not ? 

Mr. Ctraves. I i\o not know what that is: I could not answer yoin- 
({uestion about that. 

^Ir. BooHER. Why should the Forestry Bureau pay out S67.60 for 
an achlress by Mr. Kelh)i2:<; at St. Louis and Chicaj^o to mend)ers of 
the Grain Dealers' National Association and the National Hickory 
Association ? If there is any reason for it I should like to have you 
state it. 

Mr. Graves. I know that we have been refiuirin*^ recently that 
where addresses of that sort are <i:iven, wherever it is possible, to 
make the association pay the expenses. 

^Ir. BooiJER. Do you not think it would be a <jood plan for the 
department to say to these associations, when they invite you to send 
a lecturer, tliat you will do so if they will pay the expenses ? 

Mr. Potter. We have done that and are tk)infj; it now. 

Mr. BooiiER. Do you not think that woukl be a gootl thino; ? 

Mr. Potter. There mi(i:ht have been cases where that should have 
been done, sir. 

Mr. BooHER. Here is another that strikes me as bein<; a little 
peculiar: 

To discu-ss forest work with members of Kansas legislature and to attend annual 
meeting of Yellow Pine Manufacturers' Association. 

That was at Topeka, Kans.; New Orleans, La., Janiuirv 12 to 23, 
1909, .592.79. I do not know what the Kansas legislatiu'e woidd want 
in that connection. 

Mr. Graves. It was in connection with forest work antl they wanted 
expert advice. 

^Ir. Boouer. Why did you not advise them that if they wanted that 
information you would furnish it if they would pay the exjienses i Do 
you not think the State of Kansas ought to have j)aid for that kind 
of work ? 

Mr. Graves. Possibly so. But imdoubtedly at that time Mr. 
Pinchot thought the ])ublic good it woidd do woidd justify the 
expenditure. 

Mr. BoouER. I do not (|uestion the good faith of the department, 
but do you not think in cases of that kind the re(|uest ought to be 
refused unless the State of Kansas and this Yellow Pine Manufac- 
turers' Association woidd j)ay the ex|)enses '. 

Mr. Graves. We are doing that in a good many cases w-hen we 
receive refjuests of that kind. 

Mr. Booker. Of course, the yellow j)ine associations are very 
largely interested in yellow pine, and they are very wealthy people. 
In fact, it is a hunber trust, is it not, or a branch of it? Ought tli(*y 



FOREST SERVICE. 17 

not to pay for the information they get from the Government? If 
they want a lecture on the subject their appHcation ought to be 
rejected unless they put up the expenses. 

Mr. Graves. The national association paid the expenses to New 
Orleans of an expert to talk on the subject of forest taxation this 
winter. 

Possiblj^ in some cases in the past expenses could have been col- 
lected where they were not collected. Yet the ability of the body 
before whom an address was made to pay the expenses does not, in 
my judgment, always mean that the expenses could or should have 
been collected. In the first place, most of the travel may really be 
on Forest Service business solely. Thus a man might be about to 
go west and receive instructions to stop on the way to make an 
address which had been asked for. This might, for example, change 
his first official stop from Denver to Cincinnati, and cause the first 
stage of his travel to be charged as made on account of the address. 
In the second place, the address may be made before a body which 
is cooperating with the Forest Service, or whose cooperation is de- 
sired, in order that the Forest Service may get information through 
its help; or it may be the desire of the Forest Service to secure a 
hearing in order to advocate a course which it will be to the public 
advantage to have adopted, if the persons addressed can be per- 
suaded to do so. 

Mr. BooHER. This is a charge of $92.79 in your account — traveling 
expenses. 

Mr. Graves. Well, we have often done exactly that thing, of 
requiring the payment of expenses. 

Mr. BooHER. I find another here from Washington to Seattle, 
Wash., January 29 to February 15, 1909, to address meetings of 
lumbermen at Spokane and Seattle, and give lectures at the Univer- 
sity of Washington forest school. Now, why should not the lumber- 
men's association at Spokane and Seattle pay their own bills ? They 
are not poor people, are they ? 

Mr. Graves. I think that can be done in a great many cases. 

Mr. BooHER. Do you not think that ought to have been rejected — 
that is, their application — unless they would pay the expenses? Do 
you not think in the future it ought to be required by the department ? 

Mr. Graves. I think there are some cases where the Government 
ought to be represented at some large association meeting, and where 
it would be justifiable to pay the expenses; but where an association 
or a club can afford to pay and wants a lecture for its own profit, I 
agree with you that they ought to pay for it. 

Mr. BooHER. These lumbermen's associations are able to do any- 
thing they want to do, are they not ? 

Mr. Graves. In connection witli the forestry schools we are adopt- 
ing the same princi])le. 

Mr. Booher. I notice here a suggestion as to the giving of a lecture 
at the University of Washington forest school. Now, that part of it 
I do not object to ; I tliink that is right . I think that is a very worthy 
expenditure of the money, but I do not see why the lumbermen of 
Spokane and Seattle ought not, if they want to have a lecture from 
the Government and particular information that is of benefit to 
them, to pay the expenses of the lecture. I hope the department in 

48961—10 2 



18 FOREST SERVICE. 

the future will see that they do, or else refuse their request. Now 
we go to the next item: 

Washington to Philad('li)hia. Pa., and return, March 1, 1909, to address annual 
meetinp of National Wholesale Lumber Dealers' Association. 

There is another national lunil)er dealers' association, men who are 
abundantly able to pay these exj)enses if they want tiie iid'ormation 
you gentlemen have leathered, and they oujjht to be ('omj)elled to pay 
them. I think the department ought to look into these matters and 
correct what Mr. Tawney calls abuses. I do not go that far; I think 
it is an error in judgment in not compelling these people to pay these 
expenses. Here is one that is exactly right. This is money that 
ought to be expended, in my judgment: 

Washington to Ann Arbor, Mich., and return, March 20 to 27, 1909, to give lectures 
to itudents of forestry at University of Michigan and State Agricultural College. 

That is an expenditure which I think is justified, and which I think 
is right, because you are going there among these students, the young 
men and women who are studying this i)ranch in these colleges, and 
I think it is justifiable. But I can not justify the expemlitures for 
lectures to these associations that are abundantly able to pay for 
them. 

Mr. Graves. On a recent trip which 1 took West I went by way of 
New Orleans — I had to go to the Southwest anyway, I was going to 
Albuquerque — and I went by way of New Orleans and there I attended 
a meeting of a lumber association; my lecture had the definite pur- 
pose of giving the maimer of starting forestry and forest protection 
on their lands, and I think we are going to get a good deal of benefit 
from that lecture. 

Mr. BooiiEK. There is no tloubt about that; but that was of direct 
benefit to those people and they were abundantly able to pay your 
expenses or part of your expenses on tliat trip, and they ought to have 
been recpiired to do so, in my judgment. 

Mr. Graves. Well, 1 made the lecture on my way to Albu(iuer(|ue. 

Mr. BooiiER. I know, but you conferred a great benefit on those 
people, you gave them information that the Government had been 
paymg money to ac(|uire, and they got the benefit of it; if they were 
not able to pay for it it would be a tlifl'erent proposition. It is not 
like a school or a college that is kept up by the people generally. 
Here is a great association of men who are very wealthy, and if they 
want information from you people in the future you ought to nnike 
them pay the expenses in order to get that information. 

Mr. Graves. \\> have often re(|uired that. 

Mr. Potter. We have started with that idea of re(iuiring the asso- 
ciation to pay the expenses of it, unless it was, in our opinion, a meet- 
ing which would be attended largely by people outside of the members 
of the association and where it woiUd do public good to give the 
information. 

Mr. BooHER. Of course, you gentlem(>n have to use your own judg- 
ment in these matters, bi'it T would suggest as a matter of economy 
along that line, that these associations, if they want the benefit of the 
knowledge the Government l^s gained, ought to pay your traveling 
expenses. 

Mr. Potter. I fidly agree with you on that, if it is knowledge that 
they want foi- their individiutl ]n-ofit. 



^^ 



FOREST SERVICE. 19 

Mr. Moss. I am holding- in my hand a chpping from the investiga- 
tion which was held in regard to the Forestry Service, growing out of 
this investigation that Congress is making, and I am going to call 
attention to some items that are referred to, and referred to in this 
clipping, and which were referred to in the investigation; they were 
heltl by the counsel to be violations of the law and of good policy. 
And inasmuch as this is a part of the testimony and has become a 
matter of record, I felt it would be well to have the matter explained 
by the department directly responsible. I shall refer to matters 
that were given in testimony before this Pinchot-Ballinger investiga- 
tion. Who is Mr. Bristow Adams ? 

Mr. Graves. Bristow Adams's title I do not remember; he is an 
expert, is he not ? I think he is called an expert, and he has been 
assisting us in reviewing manuscripts of publications, and he has in 
the past — but I can not tell you to what extent — given occasional 
lectures, public lectures. 

Mr. Moss. Wliere is his office when he is at his place of business ?" 

Mr. Graves. Here in Washington. 

Mr. Moss. What is his salary ? 

Mr. Graves. Seventeen hundred dollars. 

Mr. Moss. Is he in your employ at the present time ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir; he is reviewing manuscripts now. 

Mr. Moss. Mr. Bristow Adams made a trip to Chicago to meet 
members of women's clubs with regard to extension of forest educa- 
tion, and the cost to the Government was S77.31. That was one 
item that was brought under criticism. What relation would Mr. 
Adams have to the mendiers of the women's clubs with regard to the 
extension of forest education ? 

Mr. Graves. The extension of forest education there, without 
question, means the introduction or teaching of forest subjects, and 
the teaching of trees and forestry. In the graded schools and the 
primary schools, even, they are interesting the children in that sub- 
ject now. That is a subject, of course, in which the women's clubs are 
very much interested, and that is the reason why he was there. 

Mr. Moss. Was that trip made on an invitation coming from the 
women's clubs ? 

Mr. Graves. Undoubtedly. We do not make any voluntary trips,, 
and never have as far as I know. 

Mr. Moss. I will say that these were referred to by Mr. Vertrees as 
giving evidence of the violation of law by the Department of Forestr}^, 
and that is the reason I am referring to this. In 3'our judgment, was 
the trip of Mr. Adams to Chicago within the scope of your law and 
activities of your department ? 

Mr. Graves. I suppose it was under the general heading of the idea 
of reporting or disseminating information with regard to forestry and 
the work of the Forest Service. 

Mr. Moss. If that same inA'itatiou were to be re])eated or to come 
from a like organization would it be accepted now ? 

Mr. Graves. We have been sending out no men at all since I have 
been in office to do any of that work, so far as I know. 

Mr. Potter. Except to the meeting of the Federated Clubs at 
Cincinnati ? 

Mr. Graves. That was on the general subject of forestry, not on 
the subject of forest education. 



20 FOREST SERVICE. 

Mr. BoonEij. I)i» you kni»\v ol' any tinu' in the investif;ati(»n where 
Mr. VortrtM's made any objoction to tiic amount of money tliat was 
exj)en<l('(l by the Forestry Bureau in addressing these kunbermen's 
associations? 

Mr. Moss. No. 

Mr. BooHER. The only point he niaih' was as to women's ehibs 
which are en.iragetl in teachin*; forestry. 

Mr. Moss. I am brinirin<: uj) these matters because they have been 
made a part of tlie record. Who i> Mr. Fred Phimmer, of your 
de])artment '. 

Mr. (iHAVKs. Mr. Phimmer is an en*;ineer wiio has been emj)Ioyed 
by tlie (k'])artment for a «:ood man}' years; lie has been assistin^^ in 
the exploration of the national forests, and has a very intimate 
knowledge of the forests of the West, and recently — I do not know 
how long he has been in this particular work — he has had charge of 
the comjjiling of ma])s of the national forests. 

Mr. Moss. Wheie is his oflice i 

Mr. (iiiAVEs. His olhce is in Washington. 

Mr. Moss. What is his salary? 

Mr. (Ikaves. Two thousand five hundred dollars. 

Mr. BooiiEK. Is that one of the thinus that Mr. \'ertrees complained 
of too ( 

Mr. Mos.s. "^'es. I was just going to give the matter. "Fred G. 
Plummer. Washington to Binghamton, X. Y., lecture at Y. M. C. A. 
on forestry, S30.70." Is it the custom of the department to send 
out lecturers to the "^ . M. C. A. societies of the United States? 

Mr. (traves. I do not believe that has been done; I do not know 
that we have hatl many re(|uests, but I presume we have had some. 

Mr. ]Vloss. Can you give any reason why this particular address was 
made at the request of the Y. M. C. A. at that place? 

Mr. (iKAVES. I do not know anything about the circumstances or 
the invitation of that particular case; I do not know enough about it 
to answer your question. 

Mr. Moss. In general, would you think it was good i)olicy to send 
our lecturers to go to the Y. M. C A.'s of the country? 

Mr. Graves. I should not think that was ordinarily an audience 
that would justify a lecture, unless it was some excej)tional place or 
exceptional audience. Our j)rin('iple is to reach those who need infor- 
jnation about the practice of forestry. I will put a statement about 
it into th^ record. The papers on file at the Forest Service show that 
this was not an ordinary meeting, but a state conference of 400 
delegates and that the public was invited to attend the lecture. 

Mr. Moss. The next item that I will call to your attentign. quoting 
again from this testimony, is "E. E. Ai'iiold, trip through the West to 
confer with local law officers and lecture on forestry at the I'niversity 
of Michigan. .Sool.S4." In a general way what connection has your 
department with the local law ollicers of the counfry ? 

Mr. Potter. Mr. Arnold is a member of our law force in the Forest 
Service and ma(h' a trip to the diU'erent district oflices to confer with 
the local Forest Service law officers of the district oflices in reference 
to the general law business of the Forest Service. Incidental to that 
trio he delivered the lecture mentioned. 

Air. Moss. These local law officers are public officials ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; law officers of tlie Forest Service: they are 
the legal advi.sers of the district ofhces. 



FOREST SERVICE. 21 

The Chairman Then that trip, in your judgment, would be 
clearly authorized by law ? . j ,, , u« 

Mr. Potter. Yes sir; it was largely administrative and the lecture 
was merely mcidental. 

Mr. Moss. I will say this that I have assumed that these figures 
are correct, as I have not verified them. Wlio is Mr. Don Carlos Ellis « 

Mr. Graves He was appointed to the Forest Service as a clerk- 
examiner, as I recollect it; he is now transferred to the department 
to assist m reviewing manuscripts. He was helping us in our office 
of publication Last summer he had charge of the elhibit of forestry 
at the exposition at Seattle, and gave lectures on forestry at the 
Seattle exposition. -^ 

tJ^'^fT\J^^ item referred to is "Don Carlos Ellis, educational 
talks at Seattle exposition, .S152.85." Was he sent there for that 
purpose, to make those talks « 

^a^elS^ureT ^' ^'"'^ "^''"^' '^ ''^'' '^^"^^' '' '^'' exposition and 

The Chairman. You do not mean that he went to the exposition 
purposely to deliver the lectures? l^^^iuoii 

Mr. Graves. He had charge of the whole exposition. 
1 lie Chairman. And these lectures were incidental « 
Mr. Graves. Yes; they were incidental to the work there 
Mr. Moss. That was what I wanted to bring out, the question as 
to the circumstances under which those talks were given 

at SeattlT^''''' ^^''' "^"'' '^''' "' '^''''''^^ °^ ^^'^ ^""^^'^ ^'^^^'^^^^ ^^^ibit 
Mr. Moss. Is it a fair statement to say that this expense account 

was for these educational talks at the Seattle exposition « 

Mr. Potter. Not principally; no, sir; the expenses were princi- 

pa ly on account of Mi-^ Elhs having to go there ti be in charge of the 
i^^ ^L^ the Forest Service m the government building at Seattle 
Mr. Moss. Who is Mr. William L. Hall ? ^ ^''eattie. 

Mr Graves. He is in charge of the branch of forest products which 

now^has its headquarters in Madison, Wis., in the new laboratory 

Mr. Moss. The item referred to and criticised was, "William L 
Hall, lecture on forest products at Yale Forestry School .f>6 '^5 " 

Mr Graves. I was at that time in charge of the Yale Forest School 
so i think I ciin answer that question. It was similar to the lectures 
which have already been referred to as being given at the Ann Arbor 
university and other schools where members of the Forest Service 
have occasionally gone to give lectures. And he gave two or three 
lectures on the subject of forest products. 

sit^r ^^^^" ^^^""^ ^^'''''' ^'''^*^"^^^ S^^^" ^^ the request of the univer- 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. And before the students of the universitv« 

Mr. Graves. Beiore the technical students in the forestry school 

Mr. Booher. Were these students studying forestry « 

Mr. Graves. Yes; it was a technical forest school 

Mr. Moss. ^Vho is Mr. Thomas R. Shipp « 

Mr. Graves. Mr. Thomas R. Shipp was emploved by the Forest 
Service. He is no longer connected Avith the service. What his 
duties were I do not know. 



22 FOREST SKRVICE. 

Mr. P(nTEH. Well, tliov were hir*;ely in eonneetioii with the report 
of the conservjition commission. 

Mr. Moss. That brintjs up a whole Une of questions. Wliat con- 
nection has your <lej)artment with the maintaining; of a l)ureau of 
pubhcity by which vou make cUppin^js from the j)aj)ers and <i;ive out 
statements, and so forth >. 

Mr. Ctr.wes. We are sending^ out occasionally news items re^jard- 
ing the work of the Forest Service, just as is done in a number of the 
otner j^overnment i)ureaus, the Geoloj^ical Survey and the lieclama- 
tion Service. When work is of interest to the public, which does 
not constitute a large enough work for publication in a circular or in 
a regular bulletin, items are sent out to interested individuals and 
the press. The process is to send those over to the department, and 
they are passed on by the Secretary or his immediate assistants, 
and they are sent out odicially. 

Mr. Moss. What kind of newspaper clippings do you take and 
preserve in your department? 

Mr. CiRAVEs. Chppings regarding the work of the P\)rest Service. 

Mr. Moss. Tlie item here is, "Thomas R. Shipp, trip to New York on 
the business of the Forest Service relating to the collection of news- 
paper clippings, $2U.'" What purpose would you have in sending a 
man to New York to collect newspaper clippings? 

Mr. Graves. I do not know, unless it was to arrange with some 
concern regarding exacth' what we required in the Forest Service in 
the way of clippings. 

Mr. Potter. The only occasion w<)uld be to arrange with a news- 
paper clipping agency for furnishing the Forest Service with such 
clippings as it nee<led, feeling that we could give them a better 
idea of just what we wanted by going there and talking it over than 
by writing letters. 

Mr. Booher. Let me suggest to you that Mr. Vertrees, with his 
usual fairness, has that amount wrong. Instead of S20 it is $15 in 
the book of expenses. 

Mr. Moss. This matter was referred to in Mr. Tawney's address on 
the floor of the House, in regard to newspaper clipj)ings, and that is 
the reason I wanted to bring this out. Are you making and pre- 
serving newspaper clippings relating to the individual work or the 
collective work; that is, work of individual mend)ers of your depart- 
ment, or relating in a general way to the results from your whole 
department '. 

\lr. Graves. The clipi)in":s relate to the work of the Forest Serv- 
ice, and where an indiviuual has done some work clippings will come 
in; for instance, frequently there were reports of my western trip 
•coming to the Forest Service. 

Mr. Potter. The idea is to cover the general lield of the Forest 
Service work and of forestry, for the information of the service. 

Mr. Moss. Has your department placeil orders with these agencies 
to make a business of collecting chj)pings and sending them to the 
department '. 

^Ir. CiR.vvEs. We have an arrangement with a clipping bureau. 

Mr. Potter. This is clone under the approval oi a (lepartmental 
committee on press clippings. 

Mr. Zappoxe. At the time Mr. Moss speaks of we had a s[)ecial 
arrangement with one of the press-clipping bureaus independent of 
the de|)artinent contract. 



FOREST SEEVICE. 23 

Mr. BooHER. Do all of these government departments have a 
press-clipping bureau ? 

Mr. Potter. I think they do. 

Mr. Graves. They receive clippings. 

Mr. Zappone. They are not called press-chpping bureaus; the 
department merely receives clippings which in some way criticise its 
work. It is seldom that the clippings sent in repeat information 
that the department has published. Each press bureau writes to 
the department and asks as to the class of clippings desired and is 
instructed as to what to send; and of what is sent, as a rule, we 
reject probably one-third, under an arrangement we have with the 
clippings bureau as to the class of clippings desired. 

Mr. BooHER. Let me ask you right there. This press-clipping 
arrangement in the Bureau of Forestry is no different than the press- 
clipping arrangement in the other bureaus of the departments of the 
Government ? 

Mr. Graves. No; I think it is just the same in our department as 
it is in the other departments. 

Mr. Potter. It is on the same general plan. 

Mr. Moss. Who is Mr. A. C. Shaw ? 

Mr. Graves. He was one of the law officers of the service: he is 
no longer connected with the service. 

Mr. Moss. Where was his office ? 

Mr. Graves. In Wasliington. 

Mr. Moss. The item referred to is ''A. C. Shaw, Washington to 
Toronto, Canada, to deliver an address on forest taxation at the 
International Tax Conference, $53.80.'' 

Mr. Graves. The question of forest taxation is an exceedingly 
important question in the whole question of forestry; that is, as to 
private lands, and the Government has been studying the question 
of forest taxation with reference to its application to the introduction 
of forestr}^ on private lands. And this was a meeting of the tax 
commission, was it? 

Mr. Moss. An international tax conference. 

Mr. Ghaves. An international tax conference, and Mr. Shaw had 
charge of the tax study in the Forest Service, and he went up to that 
conference and undoubtedly gave a talk and met the men there to 
exchange ideas regarding this important subject. 

Mr. Moss. It speaks of this bemg international. Did the United 
States Government get an invitation to attend it as a member of the 
international conference ? 

Mr. Graves. I could not tell about tl^at, sir. 

Mr. Potter. I think they did, sir. 

Mr. Moss. But vou can not tell positivelv whether that is true or 
not ? 

Mr. Potter. No, sir. 

Mr. Moss. Can either one of you tell under what conditions Mr. 
Shaw went to Toronto, how the invitation reached him, or what invi- 
tation reached him ? 

Mr. Graves. Well, it was probably an invitation to the Forest 
Service to delegate some one for that conference. 

Mr. Moss. But that is a presumption on your part ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 



24 FOREST SERVICE. 

The Chairman. Could you not, before this is printed, get that infor- 
mation and insert it in the record ? 

Mr. (iHAVKS. Yes, sir. 

The facts were as follows: The Toronto International Conference 
was held under the auspices of the National Tax Association, an 
organization of publicists, economists, and others interested in the 
problems of efjuitable and scientific taxation of property. One of 
the subjects proposed for discussion at this conference was the taxa- 
tion of forested lands. The Forest Service was requested by the 
association to send a representative to take j)art in the discussion, 
and if possible to send Mr. Shaw, who had previously been in corre- 
sj)ondence with the president of the association and was (|ualilied to 
speak with special knowledge of the legal questions involved. Mr. 
Shaw was asked to lead the discussion with particular reference to the 
constitutional limitations in the several States which might interfere 
with the adoption of better methods of taxing forested lands. 

Mr. Moss. In regard to these different items which I have read 
do you consider that any of those exceeded the authority of the 
department under the law or good policy and are justly subject to 
criticism as being unwarranted by law ^ 

Mr. Graves. I can not see how they were not justified by law. I 
think, as I stated in my testimony, that the sending of a man to 
address an audience composed of members of a Y. M. C. A — although 
I tlo not know the circumstances — might have been of (juestionable 
■wisdom; otherwise I can not see that there should be any criticism 
as to any other case. 

The Chairman. There was no violation of the law ? 

Mr. Graves. Xo, sir; I do not see any violation of the hiw in that 
case. 

Mr. BooHER. No violation of the law and no vit)lation of any regu- 
lation and ])ro})er judgment about the distribution of infoimation 
that the department has ^ 

Mr. Graves. No, sir. 

Mr. BooHER. And there was no bad faitii connected with it in any 
way ? 

Mr. Graves. Xo, sir. 

Mr. BooHER. There might be bad faith, and yet no violation of 
the law. Do 3'ou see anything of that sort connected with it '. 

Mr. Graves. Xo, sir. 

The Chairman. In yoin- judgment were all of these items to wiiich 
Mr. Moss lias directed your attention justified and for the benefit of 
the service, with the possible exception of the one you spoke of >. 

Mr. Graves. That might have been entirely justified. 

The Chairman, I say with the exception of that one i 

Mr. Graves. In looking over the travel book, as I have at various 
times, it seems to me that the expenditures are justified. 

Mr. BooHER. TJiese Y. M. C. A.'s are usually composed of young 
men who are very anxious to gather information on certain subjects, 
are they n<'»t, and are lectured to l)v various promincjU people? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BooiiER. Would your idea be now. without iiaving an oj)j)or- 
tunity to look it up, that this association reciuested the Government 
to deliver a lecture on the subject of forestry to these young men who 
composed the association >. 



FOREST SERVICE. 25 

Mr. Graves. Tliey undoubtedly requested us to deliver that lec- 
ture on forestry. 

Mr. BooHER. And these associations are usuallv supported bv the 
people and by public subscriptions, are they not ? 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moss. There is just one other matter that I wish to refer to 
Judge Booher has referred to it verv fullv. It is in regard to the ques- 
tion of cooperating with certain people. I see vou have been coop- 
erating with the Tennessee Coal and Iron CV^mjxahv. I think vou will 
find It on page 100, "John M. Nelson, jr., Washington to Birmlnoham 
Ala., and return, July 21 to August 8, 1908, to supervise plans for 
wood-preserving policy for Tennessee Coal and Iron Company, 
$110.01." Now, then, will you please explain under what arrano-'e- 
ment the forestry department sent that person at public expense^to 
supervise plans for wood-preserving policies for the Tennessee Coal 
and Iron Company, which I understand is a verv large and wealthy 
corporation ? • j 

Mr. Graves. The jwlicy has been to cooperate with concerns of 
that sort when it is justified from the results anticipated. Now, the 
Forest Service has been working for that concern in connection with 
the examination of woodlands where we wanted to get information 
about that particular part of the countrv and about the forests, but 
in practically all of that work, as I understand it, the expenses were 
borne by the company. Whether this was the initial investigation, 
the initial trip, or not, I do not know. Sometimes that was done; it 
was to talk over the whole question of the introduction of forest work 
which would lead to the introduction of forestrv in a region which was 
not interested in it at all. 

Mr. Moss. Another item ajjpears here, "W. B. Piper, forest assist- 
ant, Washington to Birmingham, Ala., and return, February 12 to 
April 19, 1909, study of forest conditions in northern Alabama in 
cooperation with the Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railroad Company." 
I see several such items throughout these pages, and in each case the 
department has paid the expenses. 

Mr. Graves. Well, that was presumablv in connection with work 
where we were deriving definite benefits from the examination and 
knowledge of the timber and a knowledge of the growth of the trees, 
all of which was a contribution to our knowledge of tlie forests. 

Mr. Moss. Then this not a fair statement of the matter 

Mr. Graves. I do not think that is clear, as to just what that means. 

Mr. Moss. It looks to me as though it meant the furnishing of an 
expert for the benefit of the company, if this is a fair statement of it. 

Mr. Graves. I know there was a good deal of work done down 
there, where there never had been any interest in forestrv at all, and 
the purpose was to get forestry started in that part of Alabama. 
As to that particular case I can not answer directly; I would have to 
look that up. We are very careful not to have a public expenditure 
in connection with cooperative work except where there is a direct 
benefit from the standpoint of getting information of scientific value 
for our work. 

Mr. Moss. I believe I will ask you to place in the record complete 
data as to Mr. Nelson's trip and the particular work that he did in 
regard to supervising plans in that particular case; also place in 
the record under what authorization or request the work was done. 



26 FOREST SERVICE. 

I will n\>n ask you to |)lact' a detailed report in the record as to all 
of these matters, as there are several items runnini: throu<:h here. 

Mr. BooHKR. On page 103 I find this item, "Fred (1. Plummer, 
geo^^rapher. instructions and help to supervisors in preparation of 
data for the Forest Atlas, S366.46." What kind of a publication 
is the Forest Atlas { 

Mr. Potter. The Forest Atlas is a complete series of maps of the 
national forests, showing the type of country, what portion is covered 
with merchantable timber, what portion is covered with woodland, 
what portion has been cut over, what portion has been burned, what 
portion is grazing land, and in the timber land, indicating the diti'er- 
ent stands of timber, one zone l)eing timber that runs from five to 
ten thousand feet to the acre, and another from ten thousand to 
twenty thousand feet to the acre, and so on; also showing the status 
of the lantl as to the exact location of the lands that are under private 
ownership. 

Mr. BooHER. In other words, it is aimed to be a geography of the 
forest reservations and forest lands of the countiy ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BooiiER. What is to be done with that work when comi)leted ? 

Mr. Potter. Parts of it are |)laced in the hands of the supervisors, 
the maj)s relating to their own forests. 

Mr. BooiiER. Is it for ilistribution ( 

Mr. Potter. No, sir; for official use. 

Mr. BooHER. It is for official use l 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Booher. Is this all the ex|)ense attached to it, S366.46 ? 

Mr. Potter. No, sir; tliat was the expense incurred in making a 
trip foi" the puri)ose of gathering information. 

^lr. Boomer. Have you any of those geograj)hies completed and 
in use now ^ 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir: we have them com|)lete(l for over 1()() of the 
national forests. But the atlas as a whole will never be completed. 
It is not a book, but a collection of maps, in many volumes, so arranged 
that new map sheets can be inserted or substituted anywhere to brmg 
the information down to date. 

Mr. BoouER. Here is one of the items about which Mr. ^'el•trees 
complained, "Bristow Adams, Washington to Chicago, to meet mem- 
bers of women's clubs with regard to extension of forest education, 
$77.31." Were those clul)s organiziMl for the purpose of teaching 
forestry i 

Mr. Potter. Forestry is one of the subjects that these clubs study. 
They have regular courses, with leaders, on all sorts of subjects. 

Mr. Gr.wes. >They were general women's clubs. 

Mr. Booher. \\'as the departuKMit invited to send a lecturer to 
those clubs for that purpose { 

Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 

The rn.AiR.M.w. Throughout the Northwest, 1 would say from my 
ow^n knowledge, the women's clubs have given a great deal of attention 
to forestry and the Forest Service, and the majority of their meetings 
are in that connection. 

Mr. Booher. Now, as to the expenses of Mr. G. S. Arnold: as T 
understand it he is a law oliicer of the department i 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir: he was. 



FOREST SERVICE. 27 

Mr. BooHER. And his business in this connection was the inspection 
of these different offices ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; that was the principal object of his visit, to 
confer with the local law officers. 

Mr. Booker. And that was regarded as a necessary expense of the 
department, and it ought to have been expended ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Booker. And that would have been expended in that way if 
you had had a definite appropriation for that purpose ? 

Mr. Potter. Oh, yes, sir. 

Mr. Booker. I think you fully explained the item with regard to 
the man in charge of the government exhibit at Seattle ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Booker. And during the time he was there he gave these 
educational talks ? 

Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Booker. And the explanation in the book of expenses simply 
gives a general idea of what the duties were, and does not pretend 
to state all of his duties ? 

Mr. Potter. That is right. 

Mr. Booker. Now, as to the Tennessee Coal and Iron Company. 
I want to say that I agree with Mr. Moss; I do not think the Gov- 
ernment ought to do very much for the Tennessee Coal and Iron 
Company; I think the};^ are abundantly able to pay if they want any 
information at all. 

Mr. Moss. I thought that item ought to be fully explained. 

Mr. Graves. Mr. Zappone has just called my attention to the 
fact that that money was paid by the Tennessee Coal and Iron 
Company. They put up $5,200 during that year. These amounts 
were paid out by the Forest Service and went into these expenses, 
but were charged up against that $5,200. 

Mr. Moss. Well, that explains the whole proposition. 

Mr. Graves. On page 138 of Document No. 421 is an item, "Ten- 
nessee Coal and Iron Company, $5,200." That amount was paid in 
by that company. In ah of these cooperative examinations the 
private owner makes a deposit with the department to cover what 
we expect the probable expense will be, or what we estimate the 
expense to be, and then if there is any balance after the expense 
has been paid it is refunded to them, and if the amount is insufficient 
an additional deposit is called for. 

Mr. Moss. I am very glad to know that; that is what we wanted 
to get at. 

(Thereupon the committee adjourned.) 

o 



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